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 Post subject: Man Facing Jail for Having in Home Bible Studies
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:03 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7tpX6oXZwA
(#1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVXvgwIL ... ure=relmfu
(#2)


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 Post subject: Re: Man Facing Jail for Having in Home Bible Studies
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:20 pm 
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I can't get you tubes to load on my computer anymore. :(
Still, just from the title, this is SCARY!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Man Facing Jail for Having in Home Bible Studies
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:23 am 
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I watched the video and am a little confused. Is he fighting ordinances or ??


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 Post subject: Re: Man Facing Jail for Having in Home Bible Studies
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:07 am 
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http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/to ... study.html

Here's a nice article explaining all the details. I agree that when 15 people were meeting in his living room or backyard, he was definitely being harrassed. I think when the man built a building and put up a sign but doesn't want to follow city rules for a Church (such as fire safety Exit signs), he was pushing his luck legally speaking.

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 Post subject: Re: Man Facing Jail for Having in Home Bible Studies
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:05 pm 
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I have a few problems with this whole thing and part of my problem is not knowing what part of each side of the argument has validity. Does it seem they were harrassed when they had 15 in their home for a Bible study? Yes. We have had non family member groups in our home fairly regularly over the years for different purposes, some for Home Church worship, some for schooling, some for BBQ's that reach at least 15 additional people. It is our business, what the topic of converstation is about not someone elses.

Now, regarding the new building... seems that there may have been some less than open and honest communications regarding the usage of the building. I know there are codes regarding such things. Are they ones that "should" be in place (not talking fire safety type things)? I'm not always supportive of such, like game room over religious gathering room - what difference does it matter what the gathering is for if it is about number of people vs. number of people? If it is about church usage vs. non church usage then there might be regs. against it for tax reasons (one of the downside of 501 c3 status, it has created a business of sorts out of church, as I see it) or other regulatory issues.

There was interjection in the article and in the comments regarding what is a church? This can definitely begin a slippery slope argument. Technically the body of Christ, His believers/follwers are the Church. When you break down the gathering in a building, as all religions have done, then is someone wrong when you gather the Church into one large building vs. numerous homes, vs a park setting... as a church setting? Each one can be a church, especially if you put into it the things that are normally seen in a designated church building. So, if this guy has the building, the seating, the pulpit. What is the difference between that, and the official church building? Is his intent and purpose not to "have church"?

This is where it gets sticky for me. Intent. Just because we are Christians does not mean we are outside the law on these things. God even speaks to following the law. If these laws do not go against God's law on it, well... If it does go against God's laws on this, and you choose to go against the man made law to honor God's law, then you have to be ready to pay the consequences that are in place for doing so. Many a person in Scripture knew that and made their decisions with this in mind.

Could this have started as a case of discrimination that got out of hand? Could this group of people have made a choice along the way to fight against the discrimination with healthy intent to make things right? Could this man have gone a step beyond that intent and created a case against himself that has now gone beyond the original discrimination and is now about his now truly having a church - to prove his point but cover it in ways that are now against a set of codes that has become his downfall?

Would there have been a difference if it were a mosque as some of the commentors were saying? Is this Christian persecution? Is there more to the story than we have information available to us - on both sides of the story? I know that as a Christ followerer, I hate the idea that this could be Christian persecution. I hate that it could get worse in our country as it has in others. I also believe we need to tread carefully through stories like this, because it could be what it seems on the surface, or it could be Christians pushing for something in a manner that is not in accordance to rules and regs of our corner of the world, and if that is the case - is there really a case of discrimination or persecution at all? Once he built the building (even if it is on 4+ acres) did he create a "boy cried wolf" scenario? I want to know the whole of the story, and see how it lines up with Scripture and the laws of our land. What does God truly say about such situations, and what would we want God's Word to say to make our point, that it may not?!

Just some thoughts that popped in my head while reading all of this. I may be totally off base on some of my thoughts and understandings.


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 Post subject: Re: Man Facing Jail for Having in Home Bible Studies
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:01 pm 
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Location: Central TX
I am confused about it, too. But it seems like they are being persecuted. The only reason they built the second building in the first place was because they were told they couldn't gather in their own house. That is ridiculous. And being told they couldn't have more than two guests in their home? That doesn't even make sense. Every person in America would be in violation of that. And about the second building they made, unless they're running a meth lab or doing something else illegal, who cares what they do in it? It's their property and it's no one's business what they build on their property or what they do in it. The new building was obviously not a church. It was only friends and family, not open to the public with a pastor speaking, etc.

Unless the number of people was causing a problem for neighbors (and it doesn't sound like it was), there is no reason for the law to be involved at all. To be told you can gather for recreation, but not for a Bible study is persecution. That is what they were told and that makes it clear that it is not the number of people that is the problem, but the reason for the gathering. Scary.

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 Post subject: Re: Man Facing Jail for Having in Home Bible Studies
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:29 pm 
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My concern is that he applied for a building permit for a game room, then used it as a "Bible Study" or perhaps even Church building (with the sign & seating & Cross out front, kinda sounds like a Church to me)

Since this happened *after* the harrassment started, it makes it look like he lied on his building permit application. If that's the case, I have problems with that. Hope I'm wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Man Facing Jail for Having in Home Bible Studies
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:07 am 
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That's where my questioning from above stems from. It seems that he did make a conscious decision to be deceitful. If so, then this is not about harrassment or discrimination or persecution. Even if it started that way, it no longer is.


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 Post subject: Re: Man Facing Jail for Having in Home Bible Studies
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:41 am 
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Location: Sunshine State
You have to step back and realize that these building codes, permits, etc are all government interference. Our town implemented draconian international fire codes that have nothing to do with safety and everything to do with control.

I understand you need a lighted exit sign in a commercial office building that may have limited windows in some places but over a glass door by a large picture window, its just stupid.

The family in the article live on 4.6 acres. I live on 4 acres. Thats A LOT of space. We have about 20 people once a year for a church potluck, we rotate homes. Some of them live in town in regular subdivisions. We have never had problems.

As far as the permit issues goes, what business is it of the local government WHAT the family was going to use it for. Its their private property. Americans are like frogs who have been sitting comfortably in a pot of water that has steadily become warmer and warmer and its starting to get a little too hot. You have to get out before you are cooked...There are subversives in city government, destroying the America we once knew into a s ocialist haven for control freaks.

Want to be told what color to paint your house? What plants you can and can not have in your yard? Who you can and cant have over? That has been happening in deed restrictive communities and Americans just buy into them.

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 Post subject: Re: Man Facing Jail for Having in Home Bible Studies
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:49 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:16 pm
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Location: Sunshine State
This stuck out to me, too

Quote:
The long-running feud between Salman and the City of Phoenix culminated in the summer of 2009 when nearly a dozen police along with city inspectors raided their home. Armed with a search warrant, police confined the Salman family to the living room as they combed the property looking for violations.


this for a code violation?

You'd think he was violent criminal and had bodies buried on his property.

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"...with men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26


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