Your thoughts on this situation...

Martha R. · **Joined:** Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:45 am **Posts:** 2924

Thanks for the input. Personally, I don't think the officer has the right to interrogate people in the car unless he has "reasonable suspicion" of some crime. He did have the right to write my dd a ticket though! Remember we are innocent until proven guilty, and I firmly believe that our officers wield a bit too much power on their own without due process.

Interestingly enough, he didn't put the speed on the ticket. He also didn't check that he had checked for proof of insurance, and he didn't put down a court date -- which I thought was SOP for our state. My daughter was really upset with her brother and told him he needed to pull those stunts when HE was the one whose paycheck was on the line. He is going to ask his Police Explorers officers about this to find out what the situation should be. YES, he could be more respectful. However, I felt the officer's behavior also was not where it should have been. If you are going to write a ticket, write a ticket, but don't tell the driver that you would have given a warning if the passenger hadn't said certain things. And don't yell at minors who have not committed an offense. Rudeness or perceived disrespect is not against the law and therefore should not be dealt with by the police. Furthermore, meeting rudeness with rudeness only makes the situation worse.

So the rest of the story -- My daughter wrote down all the details of the incident so that it could be explained in court. I felt certain that his saying he was planning to give her a warning until her brother opened his trap would at least give her a break on the size of that ticket. I went out with younger dd to get the chores done. Next thing you know older dd comes out and says, "Guess what happened?" Her cell phone rang and the caller asked for her. He then explained that he was Officer X, and asked if she had the ticket he had issued. She had trouble hearing him so walked out the back door and saw his cruiser sitting in our driveway (outside the gate.) He apologized and said that he shouldn't have taken his anger at her brother out on her and swapped the ticket for a written warning.

I suggested to all the kids that officers can have bad days, too. No telling what he'd had to deal with earlier on his shift -- maybe something really horrible. I imagine some bad feelings could have built up and when ds questioned his authority, he just blew. It happens.

I'm going to be interested to see if officers have a right to question anyone they pull over. In FL, they can now pull you over for not having a seatbelt on and lots of other little reasons. I think this is a 4th Amendment issue...

Anna1111 · **Joined:** Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:14 pm **Posts:** 8115

Bless him for calling her back and doing the right thing.

You may well be right in yoru suspicions (as far as what is or isn't legal to ask, etc). This is often a grey-area of the law.

The ACLU (I generally can't stand them, but once in a long time they get something right) has good publications on this topic
http://mobile.aclu.org/bustcard/#3

But, always remember just because something is your legal *right* doesnt' mean you're wise to do so if it means ruining a "friendly" exchange.

As Mom used to say in traffic situations "You can be DEAD right" meaning, you may have the right away, but if you take it, you can get run over!

Neesa in FL · **Posted:** Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:18 pm

I Corinthians 10:23 - All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Yes, he may have the right to answer the way he did, but would it be expedient?

Wow! I'm surprised that the guy came back and apologized for his attitude. It reminded me of dh when he would lose his temper with someone that worked at the grocery store. I remember him going back to apologize to the cashier because he was so convicted of his behavior. The officer could have been a Christian and his heart might have been convicted. DH's husband was not a police officer for the city of Fort Lauderdale for many years. He also wan't a Christian. He and his police friends had a saying that there were only two types of people in the world...cops and XXXXXXXX. I'm not even going to type out some of the letters for that word.

I still look at what is the heart issue. If ds wasn't doing anything wrong, then why answer back with attitude? Why not be humble and answer the question? The officer wasn't asking him to do anything illegal or questionable.

Tory · **Joined:** Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:58 pm **Posts:** 5828

While I'm glad he came back and made it right and apologized, I am on your side. I think the officer was way out of line.
They use fear as a way to get their way and it's bullying in my opinion.
Those kids were doing nothing wrong. He can't prove she was speeding when he was going the opposite way!!!!! It wouldnt' stand up in court, period.
He just wanted to harrass a group of young people and found a target in your ds.

Now as for your ds, yes he could have handled it differently. I think it depends on a person's personality sometimes as to how they react to what they see as an injustice. I tell my dc exactly what Anna's mom used to tell them. You can be right 100% but it can be a huge mistake at times to act on that right. (ie: when driving and you have the rigth of way, but an 18 wheeler won't stop.. do you go because it's your right to?? No.)
Not a good examply for your ds's situation but still, the officer does carry a gun and who knows where this could have led if he had demanded your ds to step out of the car? It would have been better for your ds to just answer the question nicely. Pick your battles... and this one wasn't worth the confrontation. A simple answer of a birthday could have diffused the situation.
Chalk it up to a learning experience for all.

Martha R. · **Joined:** Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:45 am **Posts:** 2924

Yes, it was a good learning experience. Apparently, there are rules that do not allow an officer to ask a minor for ID. I'm guessing he thought my ds (who JUST turned 17 at the end of last month) was 18, and if that was the case, he would have asked for ID so he could run him in the system. My younger dd says she thinks ds was really nervous and that was why his tone wasn't as polite as it should have been.
Unfortunately, this illustrates what many are talking about when it is said that we live in a "police state." We're likely to hear "Your papers, please" next. :0(

LindaS · **Posted:** Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:49 pm

GLad it worked out.
But I would find out the laws on this type of situation.

Briva · **Posted:** Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:54 pm

Quote:

"Guess what happened?" Her cell phone rang and the caller asked for her. He then explained that he was Officer X, and asked if she had the ticket he had issued. She had trouble hearing him so walked out the back door and saw his cruiser sitting in our driveway (outside the gate.)

Did she give him her number? He just shows up at the house? This means he is verifying the address. I'd make sure she drives 3-5 miles under the speed limit from now on and take some duck tape along for ds, lol.

Tory · **Joined:** Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:58 pm **Posts:** 5828

Yes, it is spooky that he went to the home, that struck me as odd. How did he know how to call? I guess he got the phone number for the ticket he wrote?
ALSO... This raises a very good point that we need to teach our dc that are new drivers. WHAT to do when pulled over?? How to act, etc.
It's a way different age than when we first learned to drive.
I'm not sure if I've ever specifically told my dc what to do (or what NOT to do), if they get stopped.
In small towns like this one, the officers actually look for new drivers. It's not too hard to know who just got a license. They often will park just down the road from our church on Wed. nights waiting for the youth to leave.

Donna/NM · **Joined:** Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:52 am **Posts:** 265

The officer is present, to enforce existing laws.....not enforce attitudes.

When a law is violated, by a police officer, a politician, or a citizen, and is not held to account, our laws become eroded, (as they have today).

If we don't stand up for any/all injustices, we will no longer to be able to stand up at all.

I am proud that Marthas ds, had the courage to ask a question.
That was NOT wrong!

(But again, in todays society, any time we choose to exert our rights we are going to be pushed back, and pushed back hard; if not down right crushed! We have to be prepared for that!)

How many will have the courage to push back against the powers that be?

How many will allow themselves to be pushed, pushed, and pushed, right into the gas chambers?

Each violation, matters!

Anna1111 · **Joined:** Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:14 pm **Posts:** 8115

I defer to Neesa's superior wisdom & eloquence on this one.

(maybe I'll just let her comment for me from now on - she does so well : )

And, officers always run the license plate when they pull someone over (generally before the car even stops) and they always have access to the address of the driver - nothing disturbing about him knowing that info.

Think of the Biblical guidance to those who love God in relation to their governments (especially in relation to the book of Jeremiah, and the writings of St. Paul)- it was always to be submissive, etc. And, I cannot think of a single government in question that was NOT totalitarian and immoral. Christians must always obey a government unless ordered to do something that conflicts with Christianity.

We can defend our freedoms in the legal system as Briva has recently done (you go girl!), but defiance, and rebelliousness - IMO anyway - don't fit.

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