It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:13 am

HSC AffiliatesClick here for our affiliate link to Christianbook.comDonate to HSC





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: The Feast of Sts. Joachim & Anna
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:05 pm
Posts: 177
Location: Searcy, Arkansas
Darla wrote:
Yes, there were letters being passed around, but no Bible had been put together and many of the letters being passed around eventually were not included in the canon can Scripture, right? And yet the church grew and flourished. Martyrs died for this church that didn't have written Scripture yet. Why? Because it was a living faith, not a written faith. The Bible is wonderful -- and a big part of our faith -- but it's not the "pillar and foundation" of the Orthodox faith. The Body of Christ -- the Church -- is, Scripturally so.


I think this is where we agree to disagree. The Bible is the primary and sole source for authority, and it states that claim in its own language.

Looking further, we find that first century extra-Biblical sources refer to Jesus as not being an only child. The Jewish historian Josephus referred to James (author of the epistle of James and referred to in the Scriptures as the brother of the Lord) as "the brother of Jesus who is called Christ." Second century historian and christian Hegesippus refers to James and Jude both as being brothers of the Lord.

The point I am making is that christians in the first and second centuries were not firmly settled in claiming that Mary was a perpetual virgin. Christians in the third and fourth century were still debating that as well. The fact that the debate raged on for 600+ years before somebody somewhere declared that Mary was a perpetual virgin tells me that it is not something that was "clearly established" in the early church. Why did christians debate this point for hundreds of years if there was no doubt? To look back from the 21st century and say "We believe it because church tradition says so - but we are only going with whatever church tradition dictated hundreds of years after the folks involved died" strikes me as odd.

"Church tradition" in the first and second century was silent on the matter of whether Mary was a perpetual virgin. "Church tradition" in the third and fourth century suddenly decided it sounded interesting. If the folks in the third and fourth centuries could arbitrarily add things to their belief system, what is to keep anyone who claims to be a christian from doing so?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Feast of Sts. Joachim & Anna
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:29 pm
Posts: 1124
Location: The fabulous Pacific Northwest!
scottbiddle wrote:
I think this is where we agree to disagree. The Bible is the primary and sole source for authority, and it states that claim in its own language.
Where? Because I see the church as clearly called "the pillar and foundation of truth," Scott. The Bible is "the truth" and the Church provides the foundation and walls for that truth. The church gives us what holds the truth up, is what defines and fences in what the written words do and don't mean. (And back then, when the Scripture was written, it meant the one, united church as a whole, not individuals within the church; whether Eastern Orthodoxy or the Roman Catholic church is the original church is debated between the two, but it's one or the other). That's where I'm coming from.

I agree -- we can agree to disagree there. I've been on the other side, and couldn't remain. Too much inconsistency and opposing viewpoints to make other Scriptures (especially the ones about a unified, "one" church) make sense.

I do see what you're saying about the doctrine of the ever-virginity of Mary being fleshed out over time. I don't have an issue with that. Who am I to put the Holy Spirit on a deadline. It actually speaks more to me -- the church is a living organism that like an infant develops slowly over time; it's not an adult all at once. It's like the commemoration of the Resurrection. The way we celebrate Pascha developed over time in the first several centuries, but nothing we do now conflicts with what was done then, and nothing conflicts with the uninterrupted theology of the church. Back then they fasted (possibly total) for a couple of days before Pascha; within a couple of centuries, the fast was extended to almost seven weeks to align with its importance and it's also a partial fast (certain foods, not all foods). That's fine! There's nothing wrong with an organism developing. God Himself made bodies work that way. Seeing the unity of the faith around the world (and through time) dispels any issue here for me.

_________________
Warmly, Darla Juliana
"Be kind for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle" (Philo of Alexandria)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Feast of Sts. Joachim & Anna
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:32 pm
Posts: 135
Actually, I do not see these things as "arbitrary", Scott. It is and WAS extremely important to hammer these things out to protect the Church from heretical teaching. The Church was never meant to be split along denominational lines. These councils were for the protection of the people so that the Church as a whole would remain unified. Important things take time. But even given that, I stand firm in the knowledge that there was far more happening than just the words in the bible.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Theme designed by stylerbb.net © 2008
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]