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 Post subject: Mystery Babylon
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:04 pm 
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Is there any reason you know of the would disqualify America as being the Mystery Babylon?


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 Post subject: Re: Mystery Babylon
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:05 am 
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Do you mean the "Babylon" of Revelation?

You're certainly not the first person to think so - my Mom often said NYC would fit the description.

Of course, there are a million ways to understand Revelation!

I tend to think that most such prophecies are meant to be recognized when seen rather than anticipated. For instance, how could folks in OT times have anticipated reconciling "Out of Egypt I will call my Son" and "But you, Bethlehem . . . for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel"

But, mulling it over certainly helps us to recognize it : )

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 Post subject: Re: Mystery Babylon
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:50 am 
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Anna1111 wrote:
Do you mean the "Babylon" of Revelation?

You're certainly not the first person to think so - my Mom often said NYC would fit the description.

Of course, there are a million ways to understand Revelation!

I tend to think that most such prophecies are meant to be recognized when seen rather than anticipated. For instance, how could folks in OT times have anticipated reconciling "Out of Egypt I will call my Son" and "But you, Bethlehem . . . for out of you will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel"

But, mulling it over certainly helps us to recognize it : )


I'd never contemplated America as being around during end times, actually. It isn't mentioned and I never saw anything that made me think we were one of the things mentioned. I'm reading a book that is interesting but I'm skeptical. He's fitting it all together with America as the Mystery Babylon and I can't see any reason it couldn't be.

I agree with you about being recognized when seen. I certainly don't think I am smarter than the Old Testament scholars and they, generally, never anticipated Christ as He came.

I can see 3 scenarios for America for end times. 1) It's simply not America any more and has been taken over by other countries before the end. 2) The end is so far in the future that America has time to crumble away on its own. 3) America is part of something in Revelation.

One of the things this guy suggests that I have trouble swallowing is the 144,000. He calls himself a literalist and yet says that we are part of the 144,000 or the woman of Rev 12. I'm not saying it can't be but I've never seen it that way. It seems to me the 144,000 are literal Jews. He's gone to great pains to name the tribes in the same way He went to great lengths to say there were 6 literal days of creation. I'm not as clear on the woman of Rev 12, tho'. I just putter along and try to pick up nuggets and see where they fit. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Mystery Babylon
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:41 pm 
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We Orthodox generally see the Woman of Revelation 12 as the Virgin Mary

"To give you a bird’s eye view I tell you this; in one scene alone in the book of the Revelation, the Mystery of Incarnation is made manifest. In chapter twelve we read about the woman who holds a male child. Before she gave birth, the beast was waiting for the pregnant woman to give birth so he could grab the newly born child and devour it! However, when the child was born, the woman was led into the desert, and the beast ran behind the woman spewing water from his mouth like a river to sweep her away with the flood. However he does not reach the child because the child ascends into heaven. My friends, this is the entire history of the Incarnation. The devil, according to one of our Church Fathers, was searching out the virgins even from the Old Testament to see which one would give birth to the Messiah. However, according to St. Ignatius of Antioch, the male child escaped the attention of the prince of this world. The devil was not informed about the Son of God’s birth from the Virgin. The devil had no clue. The devil is not omnipresent. Nor does he know everything. However, he kept a close watch. We see this very clearly in the book of the Revelation, And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth! (Rev.12: 4) "

Source: http://www.saintnicodemos.org/articles/Apoc1.php
(I am not familiar with the rest of this work or the site in general - just found this which nicely explained what I have repeatedly heard about this passage : )

ETA - if you go to the link, it has much more - I just shared a small clip : )

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 Post subject: Re: Mystery Babylon
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:02 am 
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Anna1111 wrote:
We Orthodox generally see the Woman of Revelation 12 as the Virgin Mary

"To give you a bird’s eye view I tell you this; in one scene alone in the book of the Revelation, the Mystery of Incarnation is made manifest. In chapter twelve we read about the woman who holds a male child. Before she gave birth, the beast was waiting for the pregnant woman to give birth so he could grab the newly born child and devour it! However, when the child was born, the woman was led into the desert, and the beast ran behind the woman spewing water from his mouth like a river to sweep her away with the flood. However he does not reach the child because the child ascends into heaven. My friends, this is the entire history of the Incarnation. The devil, according to one of our Church Fathers, was searching out the virgins even from the Old Testament to see which one would give birth to the Messiah. However, according to St. Ignatius of Antioch, the male child escaped the attention of the prince of this world. The devil was not informed about the Son of God’s birth from the Virgin. The devil had no clue. The devil is not omnipresent. Nor does he know everything. However, he kept a close watch. We see this very clearly in the book of the Revelation, And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth! (Rev.12: 4) "

Source: http://www.saintnicodemos.org/articles/Apoc1.php
(I am not familiar with the rest of this work or the site in general - just found this which nicely explained what I have repeatedly heard about this passage : )

ETA - if you go to the link, it has much more - I just shared a small clip : )


So the Orthodox view of Rev 12 is that it is history rather than prophecy?


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 Post subject: Re: Mystery Babylon
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:13 am 
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Sis, you just have to look at what happened to empires, historically. Where is ancient Greece or the once powerful ancient Rome? They decay with corruption from within. America is decaying, I believe since the late 1800's. Or maybe since the Civil War, wait, was it ever a great nation? Jihadists call us the Great Satan. They know us from our idols, lurid music videos, amoral TV show and movies. Our corrupt government who does what it wants not want the people want. We are a war machine.

Knowing people outside the US that help me look at things objectively. I was once the niece of my uncle Sam, my blood used to run red, white and blue, but not anymore. I am no longer 'proud' of this country.

I will never forget, when traveling in Costa Rica on a public bus, seeing a sign on the driver's visor...Dios Me Guia. God Guides Me. I had total peace on that crowded bus. In America, the land of the free, we are NOT free to put such a simple sign on a city bus. You could lose your job. I learned that in America we are NOT FREE, or have any RIGHTS. If you have enough money, you can buy your rights back.

So, long way around, yes. America is the Great Satan, the mystical Babylon.

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 Post subject: Re: Mystery Babylon
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:14 am 
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[QUOTE=]
So the Orthodox view of Rev 12 is that it is history rather than prophecy? [/QUOTE]

Both

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 Post subject: Re: Mystery Babylon
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:36 pm 
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Briva wrote:
[QUOTE=]
So the Orthodox view of Rev 12 is that it is history rather than prophecy?


Both[/quote]

And, the woman is the Mother of the Christ Child in history... AND prophecy? (Can you connect the dots here. I'm not getting it.)


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 Post subject: Re: Mystery Babylon
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:37 pm 
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Briva wrote:
Sis, you just have to look at what happened to empires, historically. Where is ancient Greece or the once powerful ancient Rome? They decay with corruption from within. America is decaying, I believe since the late 1800's. Or maybe since the Civil War, wait, was it ever a great nation? Jihadists call us the Great Satan. They know us from our idols, lurid music videos, amoral TV show and movies. Our corrupt government who does what it wants not want the people want. We are a war machine.

Knowing people outside the US that help me look at things objectively. I was once the niece of my uncle Sam, my blood used to run red, white and blue, but not anymore. I am no longer 'proud' of this country.

I will never forget, when traveling in Costa Rica on a public bus, seeing a sign on the driver's visor...Dios Me Guia. God Guides Me. I had total peace on that crowded bus. In America, the land of the free, we are NOT free to put such a simple sign on a city bus. You could lose your job. I learned that in America we are NOT FREE, or have any RIGHTS. If you have enough money, you can buy your rights back.

So, long way around, yes. America is the Great Satan, the mystical Babylon.


Hmmm. Nothing there I can disagree with. :?


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 Post subject: Re: Mystery Babylon
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:45 pm 
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this is from the same link I shared above

"Finally, a prophecy also pertains to the past if it prophesies those things that human eye has not seen. When Moses, for instance, records in the book of Genesis the creation of man and the world, how does he know these things? He is writing prophetically! Therefore, he is a prophet referring to the past. To add another dimension to the meaning of prophecy which we set forth above, prophecy has the element of teaching. It comes to advise—to move people towards straight paths and repentance, to bring consolation and encouragement to those who are fighting the hard fight of the spiritual life, and so on. Many times the prophets come to strengthen and help people and move them towards repentance, and to elevate those who listen to them. So prophecy does not limit itself to what happened and what will happen, but also comes to teach God’s people how they must walk. For this reason—I underline this—please make a mental note of this; we must not look at the book of the Revelation in the narrow sense of prophecy, as a book that will reveal the future to us! Not so, my friends! The book of the Revelation will take us back into the past and the present as well. Our Lord said, What is now—those things that exist now—not necessarily the symbolic images that John was seeing in the vision. No, when John writes about Babylon the great prostitute (the great harlot), meaning Rome, Rome is not limited to that period of two thousand years ago. “What is now” is also valid for today, so we must not limit our interpretation to the historical facts only. Thus, “what is now” is for today and for tomorrow—it refers to the present. "

IMHO: Revelation doesn't just teach about the unknown future, but about how God acts, and how people REPEATEDLY act - so they way people act in the past and in the future are linked.

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