Bioethics and when to pull the plug

Sis · **Joined:** Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:22 pm **Posts:** 8837

Anna1111 wrote:

But, as this article demonstrates - we don't always know when that is. This person was obviously still alive when the doctors considered him brain dead.

And, as Christians, we don't believe that the physical brain is all that makes a person alive - God didn't turn on Adam's brain, but he breathed into him the breath of life.

Life is a mystery too great for us to comprehend - when we start deciding this or that body part is what makes a person truly alive, we're on a slippery slope.

The "breath of life" is artificially given so aren't we intervening then? (Not saying I'm against it.)

LisaTX · **Posted:** Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:04 pm

Anna1111 wrote:

But, as this article demonstrates - we don't always know when that is. This person was obviously still alive when the doctors considered him brain dead.

And, as Christians, we don't believe that the physical brain is all that makes a person alive - God didn't turn on Adam's brain, but he breathed into him the breath of life.

Life is a mystery too great for us to comprehend - when we start deciding this or that body part is what makes a person truly alive, we're on a slippery slope.

It's true, we don't always know when that is, which is why they need to re-evaluate the protocol. But it's not realistic to have hundreds, thousands of bodies laying around, having air forced into them superficially, for who knows how long, while the rest of them, probably including their soul, is gone. That's my opinion on it.

God designed our brain to control all our body's functions and without it, we die, period. So I DO think our brain keeps us alive and it's what makes us, us. Our body is just a shell. Our thoughts, dreams, etc all reside in our brain.

Sis · **Joined:** Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:22 pm **Posts:** 8837

[quote="LisaTX"]
But it's not realistic to have hundreds, thousands of bodies laying around, having air forced into them superficially, for who knows how long, while the rest of them, probably including their soul, is gone. That's my opinion on it.

Uhm, WOW!

That's ONE way to put it!!! :lol:

Anna1111 · **Joined:** Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:14 pm **Posts:** 8115

LisaTX wrote:

Anna1111 wrote:

But, as this article demonstrates - we don't always know when that is. This person was obviously still alive when the doctors considered him brain dead.

And, as Christians, we don't believe that the physical brain is all that makes a person alive - God didn't turn on Adam's brain, but he breathed into him the breath of life.

Life is a mystery too great for us to comprehend - when we start deciding this or that body part is what makes a person truly alive, we're on a slippery slope.

It's true, we don't always know when that is, which is why they need to re-evaluate the protocol. But it's not realistic to have hundreds, thousands of bodies laying around, having air forced into them superficially, for who knows how long, while the rest of them, probably including their soul, is gone. That's my opinion on it.

God designed our brain to control all our body's functions and without it, we die, period. So I DO think our brain keeps us alive and it's what makes us, us. Our body is just a shell. Our thoughts, dreams, etc all reside in our brain.

It's a common misconception that we can keep bodies alive thru ventilation - we cannot. My sister died while she was on a ventilator. When God wishes to take someone, we cannot stop Him.

To me the debate about whether the brain makes a person alive is much like the debate about whether birth makes a person alive. Although I may not have all the answers, I'd rather err on the side of life, if I'm going to err.

There is a Biblical passage about assisted suicide - it's the person who claimed to have assisted the suicide of Saul on the Battlefield. King David deemed the assistance (even tho Saul was certainly dying anyway) worthy of the death penalty. (2 Sam 1)

Anna1111 · **Joined:** Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:14 pm **Posts:** 8115

Sis wrote:

Anna1111 wrote:

But, as this article demonstrates - we don't always know when that is. This person was obviously still alive when the doctors considered him brain dead.

And, as Christians, we don't believe that the physical brain is all that makes a person alive - God didn't turn on Adam's brain, but he breathed into him the breath of life.

Life is a mystery too great for us to comprehend - when we start deciding this or that body part is what makes a person truly alive, we're on a slippery slope.

The "breath of life" is artificially given so aren't we intervening then? (Not saying I'm against it.)

Altho some make the claim that a respirator keeps a person alive artificially, you could make the same claim about food and water. If you don't "interfere" with the natural process by eating & drinking, you'll surely die.

But, the point here is really a "materialistic" attitude to life. Not materialistic in the sense of wanting money, but materialistic in the sense of believing that we are only material/physical - not spiritual at all - and life is simply a matter of chemical reactions. To me, that is what undergirds the "scientific" view of these things - and it is one of the reasons I homeschool science.

LisaTX · **Posted:** Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:54 pm

Anna1111 wrote:

LisaTX wrote:

Anna1111 wrote:

But, as this article demonstrates - we don't always know when that is. This person was obviously still alive when the doctors considered him brain dead.

And, as Christians, we don't believe that the physical brain is all that makes a person alive - God didn't turn on Adam's brain, but he breathed into him the breath of life.

Life is a mystery too great for us to comprehend - when we start deciding this or that body part is what makes a person truly alive, we're on a slippery slope.

It's true, we don't always know when that is, which is why they need to re-evaluate the protocol. But it's not realistic to have hundreds, thousands of bodies laying around, having air forced into them superficially, for who knows how long, while the rest of them, probably including their soul, is gone. That's my opinion on it.

God designed our brain to control all our body's functions and without it, we die, period. So I DO think our brain keeps us alive and it's what makes us, us. Our body is just a shell. Our thoughts, dreams, etc all reside in our brain.

It's a common misconception that we can keep bodies alive thru ventilation - we cannot. My sister died while she was on a ventilator. When God wishes to take someone, we cannot stop Him.

To me the debate about whether the brain makes a person alive is much like the debate about whether birth makes a person alive. Although I may not have all the answers, I'd rather err on the side of life, if I'm going to err.

There is a Biblical passage about assisted suicide - it's the person who claimed to have assisted the suicide of Saul on the Battlefield. King David deemed the assistance (even tho Saul was certainly dying anyway) worthy of the death penalty. (2 Sam 1)

I'm aware that a person can die while on a ventilator. I don't believe I've said otherwise.

Assisted suicide??? That's an interesting change of subject......

Anna1111 · **Joined:** Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:14 pm **Posts:** 8115

I don't have any desire to fight with anyone - least of all you, Lisa ((Hugs))

If you are confident that your view on this is the same as Christ's, what can I say?

I've had several loved ones die in hospital & deal with ventilators, and I am aware of the tremendous pressure put on families by hospital staff, when the families are not told the truth about what is going on (as in the case of the original article here). In our case, with one family member, we were told, "You don't have any choice about whether we unplug her or not!" I think it bears some substantial research when you're not in that situation, so that you can be fully prepared and at peace with God about the decisions you make if the time arises. Personally, I found the book "When is it Right to Die" by Joni Erickson Tada very helpful. http://www.amazon.com/When-Right-Die-Eu ... 0756786894

Sis · **Joined:** Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:22 pm **Posts:** 8837

Anna1111 wrote:

I don't have any desire to fight with anyone - least of all you, Lisa ((Hugs))

If you are confident that your view on this is the same as Christ's, what can I say?

I've had several loved ones die in hospital & deal with ventilators, and I am aware of the tremendous pressure put on families by hospital staff, when the families are not told the truth about what is going on (as in the case of the original article here). In our case, with one family member, we were told, "You don't have any choice about whether we unplug her or not!" I think it bears some substantial research when you're not in that situation, so that you can be fully prepared and at peace with God about the decisions you make if the time arises. Personally, I found the book "When is it Right to Die" by Joni Erickson Tada very helpful. http://www.amazon.com/When-Right-Die-Eu ... 0756786894

While ds's death is still too raw to read something like Joni's book, the gall of any hospital staff telling a family they have no choice - :evil:

It's difficult enuf without that garbage going on. I will say that ds's doctor, nor the hospital, acted in that manner. They were surprised when we said to pull the plug. They didn't try to talk us out of it but they did suggest alternatives. We all felt it was what should happen. Occasionally I find myself doubting and hoping we did the right thing but truly, not one of us felt we should prolong it.

I don't believe "science" knows the answers. I believe the best science agrees with the Word of God. They are continually changing their minds about things. I wouldn't be surprised if, in the future, "science" figured out that it wasn't the brain in control after all! :ugeek:

DNA may hold key evidence but I doubt I'll see anything different in my life time.

I am pretty skeptical about anything "science" teaches. Agendas run everything. But, in the end, I believe that God knows our motives and our hearts and our minds as well as the hairs on our heads. I saw my son and I believe *he* was gone. And, the hospital did wait until his heart stopped. They stopped their intervention and it took several hours before his heart stopped.

Ok - I finally read the link. "The SWAT team had their own doctors and when they entered into the critical care room, they saw that my client’s son was not brain dead because he was making eye contact (and) was following their commands,” the family’s lawyer Phoebe Smith told RT. "They were completely amazed."

Excuse me? THE SWAT TEAM!? That is wrong on SO many levels! :evil:

He was IMPRISONED for trying to protect his son?! Inconceivable.

I don't believe this can be legislated, tho'. I think every case is individual.

LisaTX · **Posted:** Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:54 pm

Anna1111 wrote:

I don't have any desire to fight with anyone - least of all you, Lisa ((Hugs))

If you are confident that your view on this is the same as Christ's, what can I say?

I've had several loved ones die in hospital & deal with ventilators, and I am aware of the tremendous pressure put on families by hospital staff, when the families are not told the truth about what is going on (as in the case of the original article here). In our case, with one family member, we were told, "You don't have any choice about whether we unplug her or not!" I think it bears some substantial research when you're not in that situation, so that you can be fully prepared and at peace with God about the decisions you make if the time arises. Personally, I found the book "When is it Right to Die" by Joni Erickson Tada very helpful. http://www.amazon.com/When-Right-Die-Eu ... 0756786894

I'm not fighting, at least I don't see it that way. Sorry if I'm being too blunt. I sometimes get caught up and am inconsiderate of the person on the other end. I used to have the opposite view that I have now and somewhere along the way did a 180. Maybe it will change again someday. I don't know if it's the same view as Christ, I only know it's the view I currently have. I do think it depends on each individual case.

Anna1111 · **Joined:** Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:14 pm **Posts:** 8115

I think you're really cool, Lisa.

I get caught up in issues sometimes myself (I'm sure you haven't noticed

)

And, I've changed my view on more than one issue in the course of my life, too. Like Darla says in her signature line, we're all on a difficult journey.

You & yours are in my prayers, Lisa.

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