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 Post subject: Whatcha thinkin'?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:14 pm 
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Posts: 8115
There's a thought that keeps coming to mind. When I see the obituary of someone who has led a notoriously sinful life (a dictator, a campaigner for immorality) I am tempted to think that it is a good thing. And, when a beloved, holy person passes away, I am tempted to think it is a great tragedy.

BUT, the Bible says:

The Lord does not delight in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23)

AND

Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints (Psalm 116:15)

Our thoughts are not His thoughts . . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Whatcha thinkin'?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:46 pm 
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Location: South Dakota
Well, I do think there is good in ending the spread of evil--at least by that one person. But I am also reminded of an ongoing conversation I have with a woman in my Sunday School Class. She says she just cannot pray for President Obama. Yet, I think I have been commanded to pray for him and indeed all leaders. I pray for his salvation. Because really, everything else is just fleeting. Not matter what happens to us or anyone else on this earth, the only thing that matters is what happens to our eternal soul. And more of THIS life needs to be lived in view of that.
So, yes, the right reaction is to pray for salvation before someone dies, and then only rejoice in the death of Christians.


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 Post subject: Re: Whatcha thinkin'?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:19 pm 
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Location: Central TX
I remember when I was a teenager and after 9/11 people were surprised that I didn't hate Osama Bin Laden and want him to go to hell. Even Christian people were surprised. I was surprised at them. Why would I not want an evil person to turn away from evil and be saved and go to heaven? Yes, he deserved to die and go to hell like we all do, but it's not something to be happy about or rejoice over.

No one is too far gone to be saved. I think about that with Obama. He is passing so many evil laws and doesn't care about God, but he could be saved just like anyone else. God can reach anyone.

It does make more sense to rejoice in the death of a believer because we know where they are and that they're happy and at peace. I don't have any peace or comfort at the thought of anyone burning in hell, regardless of how evil they were, but I do have peace knowing my grandparents are safe in heaven free of suffering, even though I miss them.

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 Post subject: Re: Whatcha thinkin'?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:59 pm 
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Location: Searcy, Arkansas
We actually had a conversation on this topic in a Bible class just after the death of Osama Bin Laden.

Ultimately, the consensus we reached after much discussion and study was that it is O.K. to feel happy that this individual can cause no more suffering and that while we should not rejoice in his death because he is clearly lost, we can rejoice in the freedom from tyranny and suffering that this represents for other people.

We discussed the fact that while God doesn't necessarily feel the same need for earthly vengeance/justice that we do, He clearly understands it. We discussed the imprecatory psalms, like Psalm 109 where David says (among other things)

Appoint someone evil to oppose my enemy;
let an accuser stand at his right hand.
When he is tried, let him be found guilty,
and may his prayers condemn him.
May his days be few;
may another take his place of leadership.
May his children be fatherless
and his wife a widow.
May his children be wandering beggars;
may they be driven from their ruined homes.
May a creditor seize all he has;
may strangers plunder the fruits of his labor.
May no one extend kindness to him
or take pity on his fatherless children.
May his descendants be cut off,
their names blotted out from the next generation.

or in Psalm 137 where it says
Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is the one who repays you
according to what you have done to us.
Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.


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 Post subject: Re: Whatcha thinkin'?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:04 pm 
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Does God share David's sentiments or does He simply understand where David is coming from?


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 Post subject: Re: Whatcha thinkin'?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:38 am 
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Location: Searcy, Arkansas
Well, he definitely understands it. He also clearly can lose patience with folks that are consistently evil (hence the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the orders to wipe out the Canaanites, the OT prophecies and judgments on many nations including Israel, the NT prophecy against Rome in the book of Revelation, etc. etc. etc.).

God clearly doesn't delight in the destruction of anybody - "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) but He clearly gets fed up with misbehavior.

I think that when we read words like these imprecatory Psalms from David and then read passages like 1 Kings 15:5 "Because David did [that which was] right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any [thing] that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." and in 1 Samuel 13:14 and Acts 13:22 David is described a man after God's own heart, I think that there is a part of God that understands the need for earthly justice, which is why it (earthly justice) often (but not always) comes to pass for extreme evildoers.


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 Post subject: Re: Whatcha thinkin'?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:49 am 
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Kysa wrote:
Well, I do think there is good in ending the spread of evil--at least by that one person. But I am also reminded of an ongoing conversation I have with a woman in my Sunday School Class. She says she just cannot pray for President Obama. Yet, I think I have been commanded to pray for him and indeed all leaders. I pray for his salvation. Because really, everything else is just fleeting. Not matter what happens to us or anyone else on this earth, the only thing that matters is what happens to our eternal soul. And more of THIS life needs to be lived in view of that.
So, yes, the right reaction is to pray for salvation before someone dies, and then only rejoice in the death of Christians.

As far as praying for and/or submitting to our current government, one of the biggest problems we have in the 21st century is a lack of perspective. Is our current government somewhat hostile to folks who advocate and follow Scriptural principles? I would say that is a fair assessment. What was the government like that Peter and Paul and Jesus talked about when they said "Submit to the governing authorities" and "Pray for kings and those in authority" and "Pay your taxes" and such? Was it hostile to folks who espoused Scriptural principles? Well, if you define hostile to include execution, financial persecution, etc. then I would say they were. In fact, I would say that the 1st century government they were dealing with was more hostile than our 21st century government.

This is not me saying obey the government to the point of disobeying God, but realize that in a comprehensive analysis of how God's people interacted with governments from the beginning we see that God's people obeyed and submitted as long as that did not require them to disobey God. Even though God could have led His people out of Egypt whenever He wanted and smacked the Egyptian army around like little kids, he still had Moses ASK PERMISSION to lead the people out of Egypt, and keep asking until he was authorized to go. Now, Moses (and God) actively worked to get the government to do what he wanted, but he still submitted even during that process.


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