I'm glad you came back, Lisa.

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Warmly, Darla Juliana
"Be kind for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle" (Philo of Alexandria)

Thanks, me too!

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Mom to Christian (13), Saphira (10), Xavier (5), and Adrian (2).

I've been out till later this evening and came back to my PM box full. :0(

I meant nothing more than what I said about being gentle. It's so easy to misunderstand written words with no benefit of facial expressions and voice tone.

I love to see interaction and discussion. If we all agreed on everything, the world would be a dull place.

Peace, everyone.

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LisaTX, you have come FAR!

Thank you, Sis, Lisa & Darla for your kind comments.

What has upset me is not Martha's exhortation to gentleness on the part of everyone, which is always wise, and particularly needful. I apologize for the many times I fall short in that category.

What did upset me was having *days* of people claiming that *my* Church (who we speak of as our Mother!) defamed. Being told that She teaches things She does not teach, being told that She has done things that She has never done. Not only that, but also the Protestant Church of my Childhood -to which I still have some strong emotional ties - was also misrepresented.

It is one thing to say "I believe THIS" it is quite another thing to inaccurately say "YOU believe this, and you're not allowed to disagree with me on my verdict about what you believe!"

I don't mind healthy, fact-based disagreement on Theological issues. I don't mind someone saying This Bible verse means this to *me.*

I DO mind being told - inaccurately- "Your Church disobeys verse x" or, "your Church contradicts Scripture" worse yet, "your Church has committed the worst of sins" with absolutely *no* factual backup or citation.

And, most disturbingly, when I ask people to research the actual facts on my Church and find out the TRUTH about what my Church teaches, I am the ONLY one reprimanded by a moderator, in a thread that had already been locked. That is the point at which I began thinking about leaving the board. I know there is discussion among moderators about how to handle things, and a reprimand on a locked thread is *very* offensive. If it had been a technology error, there at least should have been an apology forthcoming, but there was not - and there still has not been. If someone wanted to offer me any sort of guidance after discussions had been locked, the proper forum would have been a PM.

It is my belief that there is truth revealed to us on this earth, by God. I respect that others may not feel the same way, but please don't deny *me* the right to believe what I believe and state it.

If I am not allowed to talk about my Faith honestly and openly - and yes gently - well, I might as well not talk. There is no other topic of REAL importance on this earth.

So, at this point, I'm so upset I can't sleep.

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http://stuffedveggies.blogspot.com/

Anna, I hope today you feel a balm to your soul. No one wants you upset, or not able to sleep. I'm confused about an apology over a technological error, so not sure how to address that, but hope that we all are carefully considering how to present our views in a gentle manner, and accepting if another thinks that perhaps we were not as kind as we thought we were. I think we all have faced this, reprimanded for it or not and it will be an ongoing process for us all, especially since it is more difficult via printed word without tone, inflection and facial expression to add to the mix.

One suggestion I do have for you, and for all regarding the issue of our church, our beliefs..., it really is not a personal attack on you/me if someone disagrees with our views, or even says something about our church that we find offensive, outright incorrect, or ?? It is like someone who is yelling at God, and someone takes offense and says it is wrong to do so. First of all, God has shown in His word that He can take it. He will deal directly with the individual and respond as that individual needs, and sometimes it is a hug, sometimes it is a chastising - but it is God's to deal with, not ours to become upset about, or to hold unto if we do become upset. He knows the heart and mind of the individual, we can only gather clues and create what we perceive where there heart and mind are. Sometimes we are right, sometimes our perceptions are wrong. Either way, we are still taking offense and creating hurt within ourselves and that often leads to anger/frustration/ill will towards another.

It is obvious that you love your church, those within it, and the traditons of it. I am so glad you have found a place that is so dear to you and your walk with the Lord. I know you really want others to have the same, and believe that through Eastern Orthodoxy they will find the truth of it. What is equally clear though is that not everyone feels the same. Should they? Personally I think God has something different for me. That does not mean I, in any way, want something different for you than what you already have. I truly do believe that I am exactly where God wants me to be. I can not see that changing, but if He leads me elsewhere, then I will go. Until then, I love hearing about what other's are doing, and what God is doing in and through them - where they are.

It is hard to separate our emotions from what we love so dearly, and feel so strongly about when others do not share in that. It is hard when someone says something about who/what we love that may or may not be accurate. I do believe Scott has done his homework, but may still have some holes in all his information. Then again, he might not. I don't know, as I am not knowledable on EO, from your perspective on the inside, or really very informed from the outside. I do know though, that having been on the inside of different denominations, and viewing them from the outside, either before or after joining with a denomination, information can be skewed from either direction. Beliefs, history, traditions, practices.. can be misunderstood, misrepresented, left out all together or changed along the way. I'm not saying that that is happening within EO, but that it could because it is by human hand and mouth that these things are passed on, and error could take place. Can God override any or all of that? Absolutely, but does He in all things? I don't know. I'm still going to God regarding any and all of this. Sometimes the answers I get give me peace, some create an uneasyness as they cause me to think through and re-evaluate things I have learned through the years. I don't think anyone purposefully gave me false information, but I have found that there have been many things that were off, sometimes by a lot, sometimes by just a little. What all this has done for me is draw me closer to my Lord and my God, and to filter all things through His word more diligently.

If you choose to stay, we will be glad! If you decide to leave over this, no one will be happy to see that happen, but we would respect your decision. I hope you choose to stay though. You have added a lot of good things to this group.

Anna, I hope you finally got some sweet sleep. Sometimes things do converge to upset us. That's what bro't me to not reading certain posts. We once had a wiccan on the board (the Sidetracks board, I think) that really got under my skin. It was either leave the board or stop reading her posts! I was up about 3 nights over it. I wanted so badly to put up a defense but I actually had to let it go and let others handle it.

I can imagine how I'd feel if someone were coming against my mom or my husband or my ... well, I could go on. When you put it that way I can feel your pain. I don't see the Church that way and would have never tho't it could be so personal for you.

Not all of us have tact. (It took my dh many years to acquire some!) As grating as it is to hear, I think we must try to *assume* or personally attach the phrase you used "I believe THIS" when others speak to us. It is a given. We are all speaking from where we believe.

{Disclaimer: *I* do not always speak from where I believe!!! I very often speak from other sides to glean information.}

I can't speak to the moderator issue, of course. (I must've missed it?) I hope that is cleared up quickly and feelings can mend. I don't know if they read ALL of the posts so you may need to be the one to go to those in question with your feelings.

I agree that there really IS no other topic on this earth that is more important than discussing God's will for us, His Word, His people... all to bring glory to Him.

I love you Anna.

Here is my perspective on what just happened (I'll say it now and again at the end of this post - this is not meant to insult or attack anybody, just to give you my perception of what transpired)

In a forum for discussion of Bible issues (not denomination-specific belief systems), someone claimed that their church is the unchanged descendant of the first century church.
I stated that it is not. I acknowledged that it had its roots on the third or fourth century, but that it was not the same as the first century church.
I was told I "have many of the facts about Orthodoxy muddled " and I was told that sola scriptura was from the 1500s and that the "catholic" and "orthodox" church were unified on everything until the 11th century and I was told to read a book.
I re-stated my facts, citing Scripture, "orthodox" writings, and early church fathers, and mentioned that my facts regarding the "orthodox" church come from "orthodox" sources.
I was told "Scott, there are numerous errors in your reply to me, both historically and scripturally, but I really don't want to argue with you."
...and the thread was locked.

I hold no ill will to anyone here. I understand how "orthodox" folks might get upset by my statements (and I hope they understand how their statements claiming to be part of the one true church would potentially be perceived by others who do not hold that opinion). I understand the moderators desire to nip the discussion in the bud before it blew up.

I still welcome anyone here of the "orthodox" faith to let me know which facts I had wrong via PM.

Scott, it's obvious there's not really a point in dialoguing with you, even in PM, if you insist on putting "orthodox" in quotes and using a small letter O to make the point that you think we're "off" in our beliefs and understanding.

<------ note winking smiley to try and convey my attitude as I write (i.e., not irritated, just amused)

I do kinda wish the board was named "Living Our Faith" or something like that in consideration of those of us here that don't study the Bible as its commonly understood (that won't be read incorrectly, I hope! I'm more immersed in Scripture now than I ever was before...), and who don't ascribe to a Bible-alone philosophy. What do you think of that idea?

I've said it before, Scott: I've read perspectives on church history that match yours aplenty. I've also read perspectives on church history that are the opposite of yours. Many of these perspectives have been made by people who claim to be historians with several degrees, and lots of study, or what have you, behind them. And those coming from both sides say that what they believe is Scriptural. Hopefully you can see why saying "I've studied this since I was a teen and as I got several degrees" and "The Bible matches what I'm saying" doesn't hold final sway.

Please understand, for us it comes down to this: Jesus Christ started a church (it's what He came to do). He never wrote a book or even a letter that we know of. What He did do was create a living Body that was to be his "aroma" on the earth. He said the gates of hell would not prevail against His Body, the Church. The Holy Spirit was to guide that Church in to all truth, and keep it as one, and unchanging. [Note that these are scriptural statements.] Therefore, there *must* be a church that has existed from the beginning, unchanged.

Those are givens for some of us, so (in our understanding), let's find that church because if it still exists, why would we not want to be a part of it? [That's the question we asked ourselves; not saying you or anyone else has to ask the same question.]

By the way, I don't like the phrase "one true church" much. In Orthodoxy, we often say, "We know where the Church is, but we don't know where She isn't" meaning God knows the hearts of people who are not Orthodox and we don't proclaim to. I tend to say "the original church" more often since it more conveys what I described above.

Cheers!

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Warmly, Darla Juliana
"Be kind for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle" (Philo of Alexandria)

Scott - my offer is still open. When you begin to read the book I suggested or another such book written from an Orthodox perspective, and have real questions, I will be more than happy to answer them by PM - ONE at a time. I have no interest, tho, in debating a million false accusations with you (and yes, that is hyperbole). I DO agree with Darla on the little O thing. The quotes don't offend me, if they truly express how you feel, but the little O looks like you're going out of your way to offend. I would never consider putting Church of Christ in all miniscule letters. But, since you said the book is on your reading list, I will be delighted to answer any questions by PM.

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