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 Post subject: Re: Interesting interview with an Orthodox priest
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:45 pm 
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Posts: 8115
Allie, I apologize in advance if my words seem too abrupt - they are not meant that way. I am simply trying to clarify the things that you said puzzled you. I truly mean these things in Love - I simply know no other way to clarify & express what I mean. My apologies for anything that seems too harsh. I have been trying to figure out how to answer your question, and this is the best I can do.

My point, is that the Church is the Bride of Christ.

My DH would be greatly disturbed if someone wrongly accused me of Adultery.

I don't understand speaking of the Bride of Christ in such a way - I find it *deeply* disturbing.

Christ said that the Gates of Hell would not Prevail against His Church in Matthew Chapter 16:18 et seq. If you believe the Bible, how can you deny the truth of what Christ said in this Verse?

Coming under attack is *completely different* than going astray - or as you put it "changing".

I don't understand not having time to study the "Great Cloud of Witnesses" that the Bible says surrounds us (Hebrews 12:1) - our Brothers and Sisters who have given their Lives for Love of Christ - that is, assuming that you have time for other interests. The Bible says,
"Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints". (Psallm 116:15) - if these things are Precious to the Lord, why don't you *find* time to learn about what is precious to Him?

Once again, I apologize for anything put too bluntly - but just wanted to answer your question as well as I could.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting interview with an Orthodox priest
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:48 pm 
Anna1111 wrote:
Allie, I apologize in advance if my words seem too abrupt - they are not meant that way. I am simply trying to clarify the things that you said puzzled you. I truly mean these things in Love - I simply know no other way to clarify & express what I mean. My apologies for anything that seems too harsh. I have been trying to figure out how to answer your question, and this is the best I can do.

My point, is that the Church is the Bride of Christ.

My DH would be greatly disturbed if someone wrongly accused me of Adultery.

I don't understand speaking of the Bride of Christ in such a way - I find it *deeply* disturbing.

Christ said that the Gates of Hell would not Prevail against His Church in Matthew Chapter 16:18 et seq. If you believe the Bible, how can you deny the truth of what Christ said in this Verse?

Coming under attack is *completely different* than going astray - or as you put it "changing".

I don't understand not having time to study the "Great Cloud of Witnesses" that the Bible says surrounds us (Hebrews 12:1) - our Brothers and Sisters who have given their Lives for Love of Christ - that is, assuming that you have time for other interests. The Bible says,
"Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints". (Psallm 116:15) - if these things are Precious to the Lord, why don't you *find* time to learn about what is precious to Him?

Once again, I apologize for anything put too bluntly - but just wanted to answer your question as well as I could.


Ok - lol - now I'm even more confused! I guess we'll just have to let it go. I'm assuming you're speaking of your particular Orthodox faith as "the" bride of Christ? That's what I was taught as a Roman Catholic, and a Presbyterian, and a Protestant, and an evangelical Christian. They all claimed to be the true bride, using history as their witness. They point to what man has said about the church. I don't see in scripture ANYWHERE that, say, Roman Catholics are the only church. But I sure was taught that, growing up! My grandfather used to joke [he was a convert, so he could marry my grandma] that the Catholics would need their own corner of Heaven, so they could keep thinking they were the only ones there, lol.

I'm not sure I understand your point about studying history, as history doesn't save me, but Jesus does. And it's the Holy Spirit of God that leads me into all truth [John 16:13], not the writings of men. I do appreciate history, Anna, but I know it can be skewed....there are many instances where folks are denying the Holocaust, for example. The only writing I trust is from God, through His Word. The bible tells me to weigh everything against scripture - ALL scripture, not just certain verses. The only thing I need to "find time" for is studying scripture.

I have no idea what you mean about my speaking of the bride of Christ "that way". I'm absolutely clueless on that one! Also the adultery reference, sorry, don't understand that either. The only way those references make sense to me is if you believe orthodoxy is THE bride of Christ, which would mean that all non-orthodox are not. Is that what you mean?


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting interview with an Orthodox priest
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:44 pm 
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I am simply encouraging you to study the things of God, and discover the truth for yourself, Allie. Or, if you consider them unworthy of your time, don't make unsupported claims about them.

When someone tells me "I don't have time for x" what I hear is that "X isn't important enough for me to spend my time on it" - Perhaps I'm wrong in my perception.

The Bible does say "Study to show thyself approved" (2 Tim 2:15) - and it doesn't limit that study to Scripture. The Bible does not tell us to study nothing but Scripture - in fact, given the fact that we are all on this discussion board, I think it is reasonable to say that we all DO value studying things besides Scripture. So, to say you won't spend time on anything BUT Scripture seems a little strange.

If the Church is the Bride of Christ - as Scripture Says - She is certainly worthy of study. She's not a non-entity. And, Just to be clear, I'm not claiming that I myself spend all the time on these things that I should! I'm not saying that I don't *have* time for them, but I will definitely say, to my shame, that I do not always spend the time on them that I should!

In Jude, the Bible also says that we shouldn't speak evil of things we don't understand - if you don't consider Church History worthy of study, that's strictly between you and God - but then don't claim that you know the Church has "changed" - It is simply not true. Matured and developed, yes, but changed? Absolutely not. If you can find the passage in Scripture that proves that - please say so, but otherwise please don't make unsupported claims about the Bride of Christ.

A side note: I grew up and spent the majority of my adult life in some of the traditions you mentioned, but never heard them claim that they and no one else was the Bride of Christ as you say they claimed - in fact quite the contrary - I'm flumoxed by your statement that they do claim that.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting interview with an Orthodox priest
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:58 pm 
I'm sorry you think I'm speaking evil. Wait, no I'm not. I meant what I said. Apparently you're choosing to not understand me. And you never answered my question specifically - but I can see plainly your belief. I'm done here.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting interview with an Orthodox priest
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:39 pm 
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Allie, you know, at least I think you do, that I ADORE you and I can say that you are an amazing Christian woman. I'm fairly certain Anna is not saying you aren't.

Another thing I can say is, your response to these messages is EXACTLY the reaction I had in the beginning. As I've stated now twice in this thread, there is a 'language barrier' between Orthodox and Protestant. There is no harm intended but when one side has been discipled by the "traditions of men" as I believe those are who claim that we are to rely on Scripture only for our salvation, there comes a brick wall.

The Apostles, as well as the whole Christian world did not know denominationalism, nor Scripture only until after the Reformation and THAT is a tradition of man (along with those things Luther spoke against). The Bride of Christ is to be united as ONE, and not invisibly. As a real, living, breathing Bride. When I found out about Orthodoxy, I was aghast! And only because I had been discipled against anything resembling "tradition". But the bible speaks of adhering to tradition!

The things I was taught about the Church were false, plain and simple. When I gave it to God to show me, I had my eyes opened to the fullness of the faith and it has been glorious! Oh how much I thought I knew and Oh how much I am getting now! One on your side of the tapestry (which WAS my side) is missing out on so much but until one is truly seeking, they'll not find it. Does that mean you're not a Christian? Absolutely not! But there's so much more to the story and what I think Anna is trying to say is, please don't speak ill of things you don't understand or know about. If you don't want to look into these things, that's your business. But you came into the thread with very blunt statements and are now throwing blame at those who DO have knowledge on these things, who have studied to find out the truth.

I humbly ask your forgiveness if anything I've said has hurt you. Having said that, you are not ashamed or sorry for your words and I cannot be sorry for speaking Truth.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting interview with an Orthodox priest
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:39 pm 
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Darla wrote:
I do agree with you, Scott, that the Catholic and Orthodox church both claim to be the original church and that it's one of the two that has a linear/apostolic right to say to that. (Wasn't the split in 1054 AD over the filioque clause and papal supremacy? That's what both the Catholic and Orthodox churches say is the "Great Schism." Not sure why the 4th century keeps coming up as the pinpoint of the split.)

From a historical standpoint, the major differences in doctrine and practice started developing in the late 4th and early 5th century, concurrent with the historical fall of the Roman empire and the breakdown of communications between Rome and Constantinople. Over the years, the "bishops" of those two locations assumed supremacy over a portion of the group but the major fracture had, for all intents and purposes, already happened. They just didn't realize that they had set themselves down a road that would cause this rupture.

In fact, while looking around, I have found that even some Orthodox historians acknowledge that the split was starting to happen by the 4th century.
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/Orthodox_Church/schism.shtml

Here's another discussion of major theological (doctrinal) disagreement that was already happening in the 4th century.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/doctrine1.aspx#Holy%20Trinity

Darla wrote:
Two things prompted my husband and I to back out on the teaching of the Bible being the foundation of the faith: 1) Realizing that the Bible itself doesn't teach that doctrine, and seeing the divisions it has brought in to Christ's Body because of wide and divergent interpretations, and 2) Learning that there was a historical church that still existed (in my prior ignorance, I'd thought there was the original church, then idunno, something went wrong and finally at the reformation everything was righted by ... um, someone). At that point, we knew we had some searching and decision-making to do.

For point 1, the Bible teaches that anything in contradiction to it is error. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 specifically states that Scripture is god-breathed and sufficient to make man "complete" and "thoroughly equipped for every good work." If Scripture is sufficient for this, why would we need anything else? 2 Peter 1:20-21 says that Scripture is not for private interpretation by man (hence, we can all read it and understand it). Revelation 22:18-19 say that we should not add to or take away from the revealed word of God. Furthermore, Jesus Himself repeatedly chastises folks for following as law the traditions of men and starts his condemnations with "It is written..."
Not only that, but since we are looking at historical stuff, let us remember that in the early church, doctrinal issues were only ever discussed in light of Scripture by folks like Polycarp, Clement, etc. They didn't cite "church fathers," they cited Scripture. Furthermore, when folks like Irenaeus and Tertullian wrote about apostolic authority in the second century, they always cited the written Scripture, not any oral traditions. In the 4th century Cyril of Jerusalem was also advocating and teaching sola scriptura.

Darla wrote:
We looked at both the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Well, not really because we somehow knew from the start we couldn't get behind papal supremacy (we later learned why). And, in our understanding, the Catholic church has changed tremendously. They have not stuck to decisions made in church-wide ecumenical councils that they'd attended and been a part of, they changed the Nicene Creed without approval from the other patriarchs, they replaced papal primacy with papal supremacy, they have added new doctrines (the immaculate conception doctrine is less than 200 years old, for example) and so on. The Orthodox Church has not become something new/different. It has developed to be sure (just like an infant develops in to adulthood but is still the same being), but in theology and doctrine, it has not changed.

As far as being the same today as in the first century, the following concepts have all changed in the "orthodox" church since the first century and are part of doctrine: infant baptism (never referenced in the early church or early church writings, baptism is frequently discussed but infant baptism is not present until the third century), "ever-virgin mary" (not alluded to until well into the second and third century).

How many bishops/pastors are at each congregation of an orthodox church? How many congregations in the Scriptures are ever referred to as having one or fewer bishops or pastors? Just a question for study.

Darla wrote:
"Thy Word is truth." Yes, I agree. Thy Word is Christ Jesus the Lord, though, it's not a book -- it's CHRIST. Logos ("word") and graphe ("scripture") are two different words and are not used interchangeably in the New Testament. When logos is used in the Bible, it's referring to Christ or His oral words or to oral preaching. Look it up. "Scripture" (something written) is graphe. I didn't find one time in the New Testament that logos referred to anything written (in dozens of uses). So I don't see that "the Word of God" means anything but Jesus Christ (and by nature, His Church since the Church is Christ's body). Christ came to start a church, not to write a book. The Bible is honored and venerated within the Church because it is a gift of the Holy Spirit to us (and truth be told, I've never seen the Scriptures honored more than since becoming Orthodox; they fill the text of our services, the book is encased in precious metals, we stand when the gospels are read, etc.). But it's the the Church that has the "faith handed down," it's the Church that is Christ presenting Himself tangibly to the world (i.e., His Body), it's the Church that is the "pillar and foundation of the truth." Not the Bible.

In one place where I saw logos used, if it meant the Bible and not Christ, it would have been idolatry. There were several places where it made no sense for it to be a written word. But in all uses, it made wonderfully clear sense to be words taught/spoken by Christ and those He trained (and those they ordained).

...except where we are told that the Scripture is the truth, and the word is not necessarily logos. The church is indeed the body of Christ, but the church of the first century and of Scripture is not necessarily the "orthodox" church of the 21st century.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting interview with an Orthodox priest
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:49 pm 
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Anna1111 wrote:
Scott - I respect that you are trying to figure these things out. I would encourage you to earnestly and prayerfully study whether the Orthodox Church IS the Church established by Christ in 33AD - as you say - the Bible encourages us to look at the facts and learn the Truth from Scripture.


I have been studying these things for decades - literally. I went to a congregation that started teaching the basics of Greek in 5th grade Sunday school (the other kids were not fans of it, but I liked it). I have studied the Scriptures regularly since childhood including dozens of courses in college which included Scriptural courses, church history courses and other courses and which included requirements to read writings from the first, second, and third century to give us "perspective."

Anna1111 wrote:
Look at the History & Doctrines of the Orthodox Church and - as you say - *Search the Scriptures*

The book "The Orthodox Church" by Kallistos Ware (aka Timothy Ware) is a good place to start to learn what the Orthodox Church is all about.

From several of your posts, I can see that you have many of the facts about Orthodoxy muddled - I mean no offense by saying that, I'm just hopelessly blunt - but I think if you study and learn what Orthodoxy really IS - you will see what I mean.

I have discussed it with "orthodox" priests, I have studied "orthodox" writings, and I have conversed with "orthodox" believers. If my facts about "orthodox" beliefs and practices are muddled, it is likely because the "orthodox" folks passing them along have been inconsistent. (and this is not intended as a swipe at any of you)

Anna1111 wrote:
Because, you see, I've been roughly where you are. Then I looked at the facts - with prayer & a heart open to God's leading.

If I'm wrong, you loose nothing but a few hours of reading time. And, you'll be miles ahead in being more persuasive with us Orthodox folk online : )

Please let me know which facts I have "muddled." I always enter discussions with an open heart and open mind, but I have still yet to hear anything to convince me that the orthodox church today is the same church doctrinally as the first century church.

Anna1111 wrote:
The book is readily available at most libraries & cheap on Amazon. But, if you have trouble getting a copy, PM me with your address and I'll send you my copy to read.

I'll add it to my "to-read" list, but as I have said, I have read many many things by orthodox folks (as well as "catholics" and many other flavors of "christians")


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting interview with an Orthodox priest
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:11 pm 
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Scott, there are numerous errors in your reply to me, both historically and scripturally, but I really don't want to argue with you. I haven't the time for it, and you probably don't either, and we're both pretty set in our beliefs. You have one point of view, and I have another. I think my point of view is more in line with the historical church, and you believe yours is. That's really all we can say, isn't it? I wish you no ill, I just know from experience and from looking at the things of the Church from a different perspective than that of the evangelical/sola-scriptura one that the point of view you're coming from is not one I ascribe to anymore.

Perhaps in these discussions, which have proven themselves to be valuable for a lot of people, we can just state what we believe and why and not try to disprove the other personally. I don't want to fight with you on every thread that comes up that includes some discussion of the Orthodox faith. That's never accomplished much, you know? We can say what we believe, and address others that have questions, but not address each other to try and disprove each other. Does that sound good?

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting interview with an Orthodox priest
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:45 pm 
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Darla Dearie, I think that is a fabulous suggestion for us all. If we could ask our questions knowing we will get different view points, but also knowing that we are free to search and research all the views as we choose, without anyone pushing their perspective, this would free us all to do our due diligence and follow the Lord's leading in our own lives/lives of our family.

I love reading on this board, hearing each person's experiences, but I have to admit it is getting to be a bit much wading through the persuasive speeches that have been going on. This way we can pm anyone we want further information from. We are all at different places in our journey through the lives God has placed us in, and I for one want to keep seeking His Truths over all else. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting interview with an Orthodox priest
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:55 pm 
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Scott, in the Orthodox Church, we love to quote the Bible verse: "Come and See!"

Attend an Orthodox Liturgy, Read the Book I recommended. Don't do second-hand research, find out the true facts.

We *never* contradict the Holy Scriptures in our teachings - we *kiss* the Gospel as part of our Church service! The Church was ONE (as Christ prayed) when the Canon of Scripture was chosen - we are still the same - we didn't change our mind about the Canonicity of Scripture!

If you sincerely want answers, and you are genuinely reading the book I recommended, I would be *delighted* to discuss these things with you in PMs until you feel fully satisfied.

I don't want to feel like I am being attacked on the board (which I have felt from time to time in your posts) - but if you have genuine questions, I will pray for the help of the Holy Spirit and take all the time it takes to answer your questions - one at a time (not 15million at a time ; ) - and help you discover the Truth.

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