These people didn't know that they would be bombed that day - they simply knew there have been increased terrorist attacks on Churches and other Christian targets in their city.

If you read more early Church history, I think you will find that HUGE percentage of Martyrs were *not* in hiding. I can think of many such stories. St. Paul. St. Peter. St.Thomas. St. Polycarp - the list is absolutely huge. I think nearly every day I read a story of a different Martyr from this period - and very rarely were they hiding or in the catacombs.

I don't think that hiding is wrong, - but to criticize those who die for Christ while praising Him in Church as somehow imprudent does disturb me.

_________________
http://stuffedveggies.blogspot.com/

"I don't think that hiding is wrong, - but to criticize those who die for Christ while praising Him in Church as somehow imprudent does disturb me."

I'm not sure if I've missed something, but in rereading all the posts on this I do not see anyone criticizing anyone for doing this. I just see responses of "I wouldn't" do this. I personally do not know what I would do. I hope I never have to find out.

It would not be easy going to any church knowing there was a very real posibility that your risk was very real as in someone could get killed.
I hope we are never placed in this position, I do however know several missionaries who are in situations like this and worse, one missionary I know can only meet with two or three at the most because if they are caught they will be literally stoned to death, both the missionary and those he meets with to share the gospel, (he is in a very strick muslim country) some of the places he has to meet are not places you would in any way think of meeting for church.

There are a lot of places in the world where if you are caught trying to spread the gospel of Christ you really risk dying, and in my opinion there will be more places like that the nearer the time of the return of Christ, just my opinion of the matter,

Anyway, I'd like to say yes I would still attend because the greatest witness anyone has for Christ is to continue as they were in their faith before things became difficult or life threatening.

People say they watch the lives of Christians when things are going along normally with really no hard or dangerous difficulties exist but really they don't they just make statements of what they "think" about how a "christian" should act or do based on their on assumptions.

When people especially lost people really watch someone who claims to be a Christian is when there are real trials in their lives, when things are very, very difficult, hard, and or dangerous, (I know thats kind of redundant) but seriously you can have a very big impact for both your lost family members and neighbors, when they really "see" you continuing to do as you were doing before the difficult or dangerous situations came, you also tell your children that you fear God more than man, and that you are trusting your life more to the will of God than the will of man.
Just because someone tries to kill someone else does not guarantee they will in fact die, especially if it is not their appointed time to die, and I really believe no one ever dies without it being their appointed time to die. I also believe that if it is your appointed time to die it is very unlikely you will be able to stay alive.

Anyway, like I said as diffficult as this situation would be I'd like to say that I would continue to attend the church or churches I'd attended previously even knowing the danger, however, seeing someone killed right beside of me or one of my kids would make that not an easy task.

Even knowing that God is fully in control, it is unnerving the things that God allows just so we can see our own depravity without him.

_________________
[i][i]Psalms 28:7
The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him.[/i][/i]

I was referring to such phrases as "I don't think it's right to endanger children . . . " and references to "Prudence" in contrast to their behaviour, and (your comment) wondering whether they were "good" Martyrs. I don't want to be unpleasant with anyone, but I was just shocked.

When I posted the article, I expected that people would admire & be humbled by these Christian's incredible *faithfulness* to God. It honestly never occurred to me that in a group of Christians there would be any discussion of whether they had done something wrong, bad, or imprudent when they went to Church.

As AnnaB's post made clear, in an environment that is dangerous for Christians, going to Church *anywhere* -even in secret- can be nearly as dangerous as walking in a "Church building" So, we're left with the same question as we started with.

When I read the great stories of Children Martyrs (St. Kyriakos with his Mother St. Julitta;, Sts. Agape, Elpis & Pistis with their Mother St. Sophia; St. Eirini with her fellow Martyrs St. Nikolaos & Raphael; St. Salome's seven sons; and many others) I am always overwhelmed by the incredibly difficult position the parents were in. I pray I could be so faithful, but I simply don't know how they did it.

_________________
http://stuffedveggies.blogspot.com/

People who live in countries (Iraq, Afghanistan, for example) where terrorist attacks are frequent and prevalent subject themselves - and their children - to attacks and killings every time they meet for a "church" service or meeting...whether the meeting is in a recognized church building or a home, or a cave. They open themselves up for attack just for owning a Bible - or even some written scriptures.

I know someone in my town who has made quite a few mission trips to Moldova (on the Russian border) and tells of the people especially the older people - entering a church service (in a *real* church building) and upon entering, they take off their hats, and stand in silence. What they are doing, is thanking God for the opportunity to worship freely, as they remember when people were arrested and sent to prison and torture for daring to meet and worship Jesus Christ.

ETA...I am in no way passing any kind of judgment on these precious people. They have my utmost admiration and gratitude for standing strong in their faith and having the willingness to risk their lives and even die for the cause and the Kingdom of Jesus Christ.

_________________
I can do ALL things through Christ, who strengthens me. (Phil. 4:13)

This is very common in Orthodox churches (which is likely what the churches are in Moldava) and isn't solely related to terroristic or religious turmoil in the area or nation (it can be to be sure, but it's also a longstanding tradition). When we enter a church, we pause, cross ourselves, and acknowledge where we are, giving thanks to God for the gift of the Church.

ETA: I wasn't trying to nitpick, and apologize if it seems I was. Just trying to present the full context, that Moldavian Christians stop and thank God, generally speaking, when entering a church, and have for centuries.

_________________
Warmly, Darla Juliana
"Be kind for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle" (Philo of Alexandria)

Actually, this missionary was speaking of those Christians in Moldova who are NOT Orthodox (as I am not Orthodox and neither is this particular missionary). He actually asked several people why they were doing this (standing in the doorway in silence), and their reply was that they were thanking God that they could worship freely, as they remember when it was not always possible. Many of them suffered imprisonment and torture. This is what the Moldavian Christians said. It may be a long-standing tradition for some, but for others, it has a different meaning. I am not trying to nit-pick either - just clarifying.

_________________
I can do ALL things through Christ, who strengthens me. (Phil. 4:13)

Cool! Thanks for clarifying.

_________________
Warmly, Darla Juliana
"Be kind for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle" (Philo of Alexandria)

martyr [ˈmɑːtə]
n
1.(Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) a person who suffers death rather than renounce his religious beliefs
2.a person who suffers greatly or dies for a cause, belief, etc.
3.a person who suffers from poor health, misfortune, etc. he's a martyr to rheumatism
4. Facetious or derogatory a person who feigns suffering to gain sympathy, help, etc.
vb also 'martyr"ize, 'martyr"ise (tr)
1.(Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) to kill as a martyr
2.(Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) to make a martyr of
[Old English martir,from Church Latin martyr,from Late Greek martur-, martus witness]

Thesaurus
Noun 1. martyr- one who suffers for the sake of principle
sufferer shaheed- Arabic term for holy martyrs; applied by Palestinians to suicide bombers
victim- an unfortunate person who suffers from some adverse circumstance
2. martyr- one who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty for refusing to renounce their religion
victim- an unfortunate person who suffers from some adverse circumstance
Polycarp, Saint Polycarp, St. Polycarp- Greek bishop of Smyrna who refused to recant his Christian faith and was burned to death by pagans (circa 69-155)
Verb 1. martyr- kill as a martyr; "Saint Sebastian was martyred"
kill- cause to die; put to death, usually intentionally or knowingly; "This man killed several people when he tried to rob a bank"; "The farmer killed a pig for the holidays"
2. martyr- torture and torment like a martyr
martyrise, martyrize
excruciate, torture, torment- subject to torture; "The sinners will be tormented in Hell, according to the Bible"

I put the definitions on for my sake as I have not really thought of martyrs and martyrdom for some time now. Perhaps that is why my response was as it was when I first responded. I'm kind of conflicted with the idea, and hense my emphasing "good" in the first place. Are there some whose martyrdom is better than another, good vs. less good? As Christians we do hold up those who have been considered martyrs for the faith, but we are not the only religion that does so, and I know I hesitate for sure when I hear of suicide bombers held up as martyrs in another faith. Or people who seem to have a mission of being seen as a martyr, and some use their religion for that end. This story obviously was not that, but once an idea is put out there, it brings about a thought process that may go beyond the original text/story presented. That is how I am. One idea brings about many trails and begs deeper consideration.

I am defnintely not criticizing anyone for continuing to go to church when there are risks involved in doing so. I would hate for people to not worship out of fear. I do not automatically think though that God would say that is always the right choice to make. He has given us wisdom and discernment as well, and there are so many instances in the Bible that show believers making different types of choices in dangerous situations. I think we need to always consider what choices are available to us, to have grace when someone chooses differently than what we think is best or right, as we are all called to different purposes.

These types of conversations are always more difficult since we can not sit and see each other, hear each others tone, ask for further clarification right away to better understand where that person is coming from. As I have not attended an Eastern Orthodox church, but having been raised Catholic, I can imagine that this is a topic that is in the forefront of your studies and mind, compared to perhaps others who attend other denominations. When this is the case, we are definitely not starting in the same place of thought for discussions. That is why I do enjoy when topics like this come up, because it does give others an opportunity to think about, delve into and discuss things to help us better understand the others who are part of this wonderful group.

All very good points, Pam.

When the press - or a non-Christian religion- tells us that a person who commits murder is a "Martyr" that is a stumbling block to many. To me, this is a case of the Evil One "masquerading as an Angel of Light" - by pretending that evil is good, he makes people begin to question good itself.

Yes, our Orthodox Faith does emphasize the lives of Saints - many of whom were Martyrs. But, the Protestant traditions I grew up in (including several - from Presbyterian to Fundamentalist Baptist) also taught about "Christian Heroes" - often Missionaries and Martyrs who had made sacrifices for Christ. I grew up as a *Protestant* reading about those who had heroically given their lives for Christ. And, I don't know about these African Christians, but it seems quite likely that they are Protestant Martyrs.

As far as refusing to renounce one's Faith being a condition of Martyrdom (which, you can see from these definitions, is not necessarily even a requirement) - there are many ways of renouncing one's Faith - not only words but actions can be used to renounce Christ. (After all, if our words don't match our actions, we are simply hypocrites). I think of a famous story of a Martyr who was brought to offer incense to Caesar (in effect would be worshipping him). His hand was filled with incense, and held over the sacrificial fire by force. They thought the pain would force him to shake the incense into the fire. They were wrong. He stood there while his hand burned away - refusing to release the incense. Sometimes our actions can confirm (confess) or deny Christ much more strongly than any words we might speak.

_________________
http://stuffedveggies.blogspot.com/